tv [untitled] July 25, 2011 7:31am-8:01am EDT
make an security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america are you folks this is cross talk that means you can jump anytime you want my very much encourage it to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. what it's really too early to say that it's lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he did is he in trial today yes he here is but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for
a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems and christian cops and all of that it's just i think it's a pick me for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that give times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now and it would take us before seeing it sorry you're in front of a very interesting story ground you were a very good point i got to get in that in london the military saying that you know they have to watch out for the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. way. the mubarak regime was a very color and he used security and stability the same language
american quinolone and language british colonial language security stability they never speak about justice social gesture is already quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that the egyptian people to me and of people who went to the streets to the here's with squid since twenty five january and of course we got three of mubarak the head over there. but the body of that he is still there they are in the military in the government in the media in your universe you know and i don't mean who am i going to learn and so on that point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime it just without its head and this is willy one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the corpus of that regime is still very
active the military has amazing privileges controls huge swaths of the economy i mean in many many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know ways by the military yes of course it's trying to maintain its power its economic power its hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military to slow down partially with change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so that islam is the products of the muslim brotherhood is the one of his pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones doing down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as they should be asked for prosecution of the individual sling to their regime but on
the other hand baseload down on certain things and that is problematic bad i think speaks in a way the defragmentation. political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own from internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok rule as i think is very interesting and. liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they know what they're doing in the muslim brotherhood is out there and i wanted to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the like it's got a real reverse time going i had. yes yes they are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliamentary last election the one before. muslim brother that barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something seats say
they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election where a total of three but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with a muslim brother and i think they did some how they divided the power you control as mother and muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will take care of you what do you give them back is your vote and that's what you know that i don't. badger you is it that's not a bad deal is it to me considering the exam that is. it's not a bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will do what the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what i want to be out of their government what do what would we expect that would be
there there are there are there agenda there would be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more about civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to one hundred el baradei today or i minorities people they will simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with i am and what kind of foreign relation we might have ok let's talk about what it was our relations in the second half of the program and now what do you think about that i mean the the. brotherhood they're prepared for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of lives. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the muslim brothers now because who supported the muslim brothers said that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim
brothers usually i say george bush and bin ladden are twins so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and the word. politics the muslim brotherhood did not start that evolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of january started without the muslim brothers there was not the same islamic slogan or christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning and when that revolution succeeded then the muslim brother joined on in the usually do that also in just a few days ago on the it's of july with the second revolution the muslim brotherhood did not share and they were even against it and today they are against
the demonstrations but the medians of people in egypt are demonstrating and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they join. us we're going to you ok this is the muslim brotherhood is a political fact on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of it now lorenzo go ahead. of course it is evolving as usual i think you know the problem is. how you deal with it on a practical level i think the the are the the supreme council of the armed forces also is probably in a way a lot of people. using of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire a twenty five percent of qualified minority believe them to be did the greatest party and they know the future egyptian parliament how do you deal with the
liberals i think that is where the problem lays in the thank you they have not been able to create to untie brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life but anyways do not share these almost platform views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with their position but views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is it starkly false i think the big dilemma of air in washington now is after it yourself and refusing to even talk to the brotherhood which was to some degree an eye for critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states acknowledges that the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian government how you deal with them and the position a bit the clinton is taking right now it's relatively sound one we talk to
everybody you anybody with does not support violence and we have this wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach where the u.s. can look at it it's going it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to break through what do you think about that i mean you may not like them but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election i immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy it called them and it became a mass it's become a disaster a situation still today we're seeing that i'm credible results of that the worst of the worst what do you do it is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what the jordanian regime did they included in the going to jump in here we're going to wish a very great and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with her to. you.
if you're following up on my. back and archaic part of. it goes back to a time when people would lie down in their forces in the wild lands and pick up these future dates and putting them into the sheriff from prosecution go looking like a female. when they go out there. and have to hope that nothing bad. will and.
we're chasing killers and you gotta keep that in mind others a two million dollar deal police arrest. but not super hero they can be killed to you know they shoot me in the head i'm going to die. and. once you had never go back to hunt anything else hungry for the full story we've got it for. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. across town about to mind you we're talking about egypt's revolution. ok no i got to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt there's
a going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values. yes i have confidence in their power of the millions for in their streets living in tents into the square and everywhere i have power and confidence in the people but i would like to say something very important how mass was encouraged by israel to fight against fat and ben ladden was encouraged by u. s. and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because what happened that their followers the dictators the capitalist powers they play fair and religious revolution that and really socialist revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use can eyes of course and their allies like mubarak and said that so they
put it what they are afraid of the real socialists through of the millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups sell a few years in egypt we have set a few years that came like that through saudi arabia and the us so we have to be really aware of the fact ok that connection lorenzo you are you are you are you are thinking why you are laughing and you want to make a commentary and i really just a guy with this i'd like to see a secure tauriel mindset and i said i might also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think go ahead lorenzo yeah. well first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's just mind blowing because i mean there is one figure the united states fears today if there's
anything islam is i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamist full. and i think what the rule i was talking about with hamas something that exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so as i ignore most concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states and traditionally through far so i think that's about so far as you said you should be thinking he pointed out you're going to the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these a huge country is about million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically bad know this is the best organized political forces are the one to take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force but it has a massive popular support that like the brotherhood can take over and one of those that think the brotherhood will i mean this is a lot i tell you. this is one of the only groups who are not organized one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what it will do you that's why i want
to do this program you see there's a fear that they and i'm not going to just focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because organization is very important you can get rid of the head the the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the far font size of power for the regime but the part of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know they gyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes and you go to any mosque inside in everywhere in the south of egypt is any simple in mom even without the background or the education he will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there they want got millions of votes let's be let's be clear about what's going on there i've joined that is already ruler of all i want to go back you know i want to
go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with hezbollah we see that with hamas i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same time this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way what do you think about that now and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from there on. i live in egypt all my life i was in that how do you square that i i feel the people yes the millions who went to that is where are not the eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood few thousands they are organized but they are just through cell that they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know their situation i feel i have confidence in the people because i live with
them they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. got injured and they are not i know our mind us genteel as a free liberally woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the propaganda about. we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there would be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that it would be that they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament you really think that they were not anyway lotion . you didn't follow that evolution the last sort of illusion in egypt we said there will be no elections there is a pressure now from the millions we have to push stop postpone the elections
because if we have elections now already in november or september or even december the of course the organized groups all of organized groups not only the muslim brother but the all political parties broke the law to come in but we are asking this is one of the very important demands of that evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the elections would change the constitution with changing their the laws of political parties and all of that knows so that we give time to the young people into the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and can enter the election ok. i don't you're going to hold one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the both while
egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example or go ahead it's very difficult to see what we're going to see was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to save it but is as much as the liberals going to paint here that you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the u.s. as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is one of the few indications where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal that is very difficult to see i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a bit to get from these. and the poor they get from the liberals saying trying to have at least the leaders talk is about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic aim pray in the same way the sharia should be the source of legislation which is exactly what the constitution
of the last thirty or so has said so no difference in bed to. the sort of keep it at least the way it is if the elections the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think we're going to get a majority but opposition a furtive percent something around the bad number we've alliances i think there's no question of their going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand but some of the fear mongers here in the west think nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to be pushing for more shadier for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program yes or you know go ahead i was going to talk about foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not to cut down a relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these
people the more leverage you have on top of the listen the military didn't shoot anybody nor do i try to shoot a lot of fault i am sorry i hate it clinton is not going to tell me what i'm going to do he had it came to me is that i know nobody is telling me yeah what he's not the one i would say that i should what no what i would like to say that the egyptian revolution the lane try to resign and not in an ideological way where trying i mean it's prime and i'm not saying rather he did it just listen to me because i could try to pry my care i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should resign as we know that the future of egypt i think all power i'm not you know i lead a nation i think you and three. they start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the more it was the call that was like three days but the longer they are in will it and don't get older and they will show the bride i want to jump in here
and we're going to hands all around so yes he is yes this is the end of my life before we had a very dogmatic point of view on politics i do think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular or religious that is it yes the energy goes in the right and also when it comes to the brotherhood as much as he remains a strong ideological organization there's no question about push come to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in the opposition you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern to some degree they're going to have to govern in a band you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment that then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a do the destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas with the u.s. with turkey with the arab league that's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean in a way we've been talking up the brotherhood as this super powerful group but it has
its problems and it is never faced the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its activities it's grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to make and i think that's going to really change i'm going to create a lot of tension in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing with some internal friction stake in place within the group so the brotherhood itself has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks to my guest today in rome london and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember prostate.
the grand imperial truly. socialist you see don't need to go and. read this in the kennel was a hotel retreat. the pain in spain thousands of demonstrators and their fury over soaring unemployment and the government's handling of the struggling economy. across the atlantic the rush to reassure the markets that the u.s. can avert the looming default even though the president and legislators can't agree on how to lift the multi-trillion dollar debt limit. and here we see no way pauses to remember the ninety three victims of friday's twin terrorist attacks. the country's worst atrocities since.
this is good to have you with us on this monday i'm showing thousands of protesters have set up camp in madrid's central square angry at the crippling recession and mass unemployment they know their country is in deep trouble but see the future being decided by brussels and the i.m.f. instead of being able to deal with the mess themselves. has been to meet them. the cash in spain is going mainly down the drain at least that's the opinion of thousands of people who've rallied across the country. who are going to follow in the footsteps of. let american countries take care of by mexico the government is controlled by the european bank and half w.t. they don't care about the people. so the people decided it's time to voice their
concerns loud and clear before the lose more than just the shirt off their back spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in the eurozone so while the european leaders have been occasionally meeting in comfortable quarters to talk about the future of the euro and the european union itself people in the country have been demonstrating on an almost weekly basis demanding the government shape up stop talking and do something about the situation this is not just about higher wages and better pension plans with more than forty percent of young people in spain unemployed simply getting a job is a priority for those gathered in the trades central square the big part of the responsibility is from the government. because the government first of all people not to create the conditions at the beginning of the crisis to fight against the crisis it reacts very late. and all the other.